In our 83rd episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Geoff Jones, author of the adult thriller, The Dinosaur Four. Geoff has a degree in Creative Writing from the University of Colorado. And he has written for Star Wars, Indiana Jones, LEGO, Marvel, and other franchises. Learn more about Geoff at his website, geoffjoneswriter.com, or connect with him on Twitter @geoffjones.

Episode 83 is also about Velociraptor, a small dromaeosaurid often confused with Deinonychus or Utahraptor (because of Jurassic Park).

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In this episode, we discuss:

• The dinosaur of the day: Velociraptor
• Name means “swift seizer”
• Two valid species: Velociraptor mongoliensis (type species) and Velociraptor osmolskae (named in 2008, found skull in Inner Mongolia)
• Peter Kaisen found the first Velociraptor fossil in 1923 as part of an American Museum of Natural History expedition to the Gobi Desert in Mongolia. He found a crush, but complete skull and some second toe claws
• Henry Fairfield Osborn named the new genus Velociraptor
• The species name mongoliensis is after Mongolia
• Earlier in 1924, Osborn had called it Ovoraptor djadochtari in a press article, but it wasn’t a formal description or named in a scientific journal, so it’s a nomen nudum (naked name)
• In 2008, Pascal Godefroit and colleagues named bones found in 1999 by the Sino-Belgian Dinosaur Expeditions Velocirpator osmolskae (for Polish paleontologist Halszka Osmólska). They found it was Velociraptor but not similar enough to Velociraptor mongoliensis
• Previously recognized Velociraptor species include Velociraptor antirrhopus and Velociraptor langstoni (formerly Deinonychus antirrhopus and Saurornitholestes langstoni)
• More than a dozen skeletons have been described (more than any other dromaeosaurid)
• In 1990 a joint Mongolian American expedition in the Gobi found more Velociraptor skeletons. One is nicknamed “Ichabodcraniosaurus” because it was a fairly complete skeleton without a skull
• Two Velociraptor-like skulls were found in an oviraptorid nest in Mongolia, discovered in the 90s
• Dromaeosaurid theropod that lived in the Cretaceous
• Velociraptor was originally part of Megalosauridae (wastebasket taxon)
• Carnivore
• Probably intelligent, had a large brain in proportion to its body size
• Velociraptor may have been nocturnal
• Adults grew up to 6.8 ft (2.07 m) long, and weighed 33 lb (15 kg); skull could be up to 10 in (25 cm) long
• Had a long tail
• Had a long, low skull, with an upturned snout
• May have been able to run as fast as 24 mph (39 kph)
• Bipedal with feathers
• In 2007 paleontologists found quill knobs on a Velociraptor mongoliensis forearms, which confirmed it had feathers
• Turner, Norell, and Peter Makovicky said the feathers on Velociraptor was evidence against the idea that larger maniraptorans lost their feathers because they were bigger, and quill knobs aren’t really found in modern flightless birds, so the fact that Velociraptor had quill knobs probably means that their ancestors could fly, and Velociraptor and other relatives were secondarily flightless (though its ancestors may have used feathers for something other than flight too)
• Velociraptor arms were too short to fly or glide
• Velociraptor may have used feathers for display, to help brood, or to increase their speed when running up slopes
• Looked a lot like birds (like birds, had wishbones, they brooded nests, they had hollow bones, and had feathers)
• Kiwi birds are similar to Velociraptors (similar feather types, anatomy, bone structure, and narrow anatomy of nasal passages). Kiwi birds are very active and flightless, and so make a good model for the metabolism of dromaeosaurids (probably had a moderate metabolism)
• Jaws had 26-28 teeth on each side, and the back edges of the teeth were more serrated than the front
• Had three curved claws on each hand, similar to wing bones of modern birds (second digit was the longest, the first the shortest); had four toes, but only walked on its third and fourth toes (first toe had a small dew claw and second was held off the ground and had a large sickle-shaped claw)
• Had a large sickle-shaped claw on each hindfoot, probably used to tackle prey
• Sickle-shaped claw grew to over 2.6 in (6.5 cm) long
• May have been able to climb trees (with its toe claws)
• One skeleton is in a fighting position with Protoceratops
• In 1971 a Polish-Mongolian team found the Fighting Dinosaurs, a Velociraptor battling Protoceratops, in Mongolia
• At first, scientists thought the Fighting Dinosaurs had drowned, but they were preserved in ancient sand dune deposits, so now they think they were buried in sand, from a collapsing dune or in a sandstorm (probably happened quickly)
• In the Fighting Dinosaur, the Velociraptor’s sickle like claw is in the Protoceratops‘ throat, and the Protoceratops‘ beak is clamped on the Velociraptor’s right forelimb. So, Velociraptor may have used its claw to pierce the jugular vein or trachea instead of slashing and disemboweling
• Velociraptor in Fighting Dinosaurs was either starving or young and dumb, according to Hone, since the Protoceratops was 50% bigger than it
• A 2005 BBC documentary, called The Truth About Killer Dinosaurs, created an articifical Velociraptor leg with a sickle claw and tried to disembowel a pork belly, but it could not tear it open, which shows Velociraptor may not have been able to disembowel prey
• Phillip Manning, a British paleontologist oversaw the 2005 BBC experiment. He said, “Using the claw to slash would have been like me trying to disembowel you with a plastic spoon”
• In 2011, Denver Fowler and colleagues said that Velociraptor may have used a “raptor prey restraint” (RPR), where they leaped onto prey, pinned them, and held onto them with their sickle-shaped claws. Then they would start to eat their prey, which would die from blood loss and organ failure. Their tails would help them to counterbalance
• Hawks do the same thing where they pin down prey and start eating them alive
• Not really any evidence that Velociraptor was a pack hunter (like in Jurassic Park), many isolated fossils have been found, none closely associated with other specimens
• Probably ate small animals, like reptiles, amphibians, insects, small dinosaurs, and mammals
• Velociraptor may have been a scavenger. In 2010 Hone and colleagues published a study of teeth they found in 2008 near a Protoceratops jaw bone. It was probably “late-stage carcass consumption by Velociraptor” because normally it would eat other parts of a Protoceratops, like go for the throat, as seen in the Fighting Dinosaurs
• Ate pterosaurs (found a large pterosaur bone in a Velociraptor gut in 2012), probably scavenged it, since the pterosaur had a large wingspan of 6.5 ft (2 m) and would have been formidable
• Velociraptor may have fought each other. One skull shows two rows of small punctures the same size and spacing of Velociraptor teeth, and there’s no signs of healing, so it probably died of these wounds
• Velociraptors in Jurassic Park were modeled after Deinonychus
• Apparently Michael Crichton met John Ostrom, who discovered Deinonychus, to talk about its behavior and appearance, and then apologetically told Ostrom he used the name Velociraptor instead because it sounded more dramatic
• Utahraptor was discovered while Jurassic Park was in production (see episode 34, talked to Jim Kirkland)
• Raptor sounds in Jurassic Park were tortoise mating sounds (used when Raptors are barking at each other to talk to each other)
• An article in Slate points out that Jurassic World has a strong female lead–the Velociraptor, Blue
• Blue chooses her ally at the end (Indominus Rex or humans), and has a close relationship with Owen Grady
• Discover Magazine contemplated if Velociraptors could be trained, the way Owen Grady trains them. Assuming they were pack hunters (based on a group of dromaeosaur tracks found in 2007 in China), that means they were intelligent. According to Jack Horner, like in falconry, where you train through positive reinforcement by rewarding them with food and protection, you could probably train them. Also, by asserting dominance and becoming the alpha, and by imprinting (whoever is there when they hatch is seen as the mother, as seen with geese and other modern birds). Of course, in Jurassic World they may have just tweaked the Velociraptor DNA to make them more docile
• The website, velociraptors.info, is for the American Society for Velociraptor Attack Prevention, which the website says is “a bi-partisan group of professionals, dedicated to the diffusion of knowledge concerning velociraptor attack prevention”. According to them, June is “National Velociraptor Awareness Month! The American Society for Velociraptor Attack Prevention, along with the North American Velociraptor Defense Association and the United Velociraptor Widows Fund, will be providing free velociraptor safety seminars at local Red Cross centers across the nation. Contact your local center for more information.” It also gives a description of Velociraptors, home buyer tips so you’re prepared in case of Velociraptor attacks, and a quiz to find out if your neighbors are Velociraptors
• Thingiverse lets you download a Velociraptor business card, which gives you parts to 3D print so you can assemble into a Velociraptor
• In late May of this year, Paultons Park near Romsey, Hampshire in the UK had an incident where 15 passengers were stuck 45 ft in the air for 40 minutes on the new Velociraptor ride. There was a hissing sound and then the brakes locked the car onto the beginning of one of the drops. Eventually all the riders were evacuated.
• Part of Dromaeosauridae
• Also part of the subfamily Velociraptorinae (all dromaeosaurs more closely related to Velociraptor than Dromaeosaurus)
• Other genera in Velociraptorinae include Deinonychus and Saurornitholestes, and Tsaagan
• Dromaeosaurids are carnivorous theropods closely phylogenetically related to Aves (a clade that includes birds)
• Probably originated before the Late Jurassic, but fossil record so far is only of Cretaceous
• Lived all over the world, but there are not that many fossils
• Dromaeosaurids from the Late Cretaceous in North America have a poor fossil record, mostly known from isolated teeth
• In North America, only 8 species named, based on incomplete fossil remains
• Often referred to as raptors (because of Jurassic Park)
• Dromaeosaurids had S-curved necks, long arms and large hands with large claws
• Feet had a recurved claw on the second toe (sickle claw)
• Claw may have been used for slashing, climbing, or even clawing through insect nests
• At least some may have lived in groups
• Most, if not all, had feathers
• Bipedal, but held their second toe off the ground when walking
• Had long tails, that may have been used to help counterbalance when running or in the air
• Generally small to medium sized (though Utahraptor was large)
• Some could fly or glide (like Changyuraptor yangi)
• Very birdlike (behavior and having feathers)
• Fun fact: The ZW chromosome scheme that some animlas (including birds) have that determines the gender of their offspring from the mother’s egg alone. Remember ZW is a female, and ZZ is a male… It turns out that Komodo dragons have long given birth in captivity and the wild without mating. Weirdly Boa constrictors can also reprodoce asexually, but in a scientific study one female produced 22 young which were all female and had WW chromosomes (when males are ZZ and females are usually ZW)… So maybe some female dinosaurs could reproduce without needing a male. Which really made it a bad idea in Jurassic Park to make all of the dinosaurs female…

For those who may prefer reading, see below for the full transcript of our interview with Geoff Jones:

Garret: We’re joined today by Geoff Jones. He has a degree in Creative Writing from the University of Colorado and he has written for the Star Wars, Indiana Jones, LEGO, Marvel, and other video game franchises. And of course we’re speaking with him today because he’s also the author of The Dinosaur Four.

So jumping write in your thesis was a novella about dragons taking over the world. Was that when you got interested in dinosaurs, or did that come earlier?

Geoff Jones: Well I’ve been interested in dinosaurs all my life. I mean who doesn’t grow up loving dinosaurs? I remember a nightmare when I was probably seven or eight years old of a T-rex chasing me around my back yard, and I was climbing up in trees trying to escape. But I’ve always liked monster stories, and I think the novella was an attempt at a monster story I was trying in college.

Garret: Cool. So do you have a favorite dinosaur?

Geoff Jones: Oh it’s gotta be T-rex. There’s just no greater monster, you know. It’s such an awesome killer with just that mouth full of teeth coming at ya.

Sabrina: Yeah it seemed like you enjoyed writing about T-rex in your book.

Geoff Jones: Yeah it was fun. And I really wanted to put in the scene that you always see drawings and paintings of but that we’ve never really seen brought to life with the T-rex versus the Triceratops. That was a lot of fun.

Garret: Oh yeah that was a good scene.

Geoff Jones: Thanks.

Garret: So it’s probably not surprising, but my favorite thing about the book was the way that you depicted all these dinosaurs. How much research did you put into how the dinosaurs behaved and other attributes of them?

Geoff Jones: Well I’ve always tried to keep up with what’s going on, and so I’m certainly not an expert but if I see a dinosaur article I would always stop and read it, and I would always read books from the library with my kids, I would try to read them dinosaur books. And then for Dinosaur Four I did a lot of looking around on the Internet, making sure that the things I thought I remembered were all more or less accurate. You know I followed the debate over the years about whether a T-rex is a hunter or a scavenger, and so I had him doing both. I had him attacking people and then getting distracted when he smelled a carcass early on in the story.

One thing that was fun for me was there’s been articles over the years about the idea that the big sauropod tails could possibly go faster than the speed of sound, so I had a scene with that. And then after the book was finished and published there was an article that came out about weaponized tails with a sauropod that was just renewed focus on that. And that was pretty cool to see that.

Sabrina: That’s awesome, that just basically validates what you wrote.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, yeah that was fun.

Sabrina: Were you living in Colorado while you were writing the book? Just wondering if that had influenced anything.

Geoff Jones: Yeah I was, I was. And I did wanna make sure that the species I had were all Colorado natives and lived at pretty much the same time as I have my characters go to.

Garret: Yeah, yeah that’s definitely a nice touch that a lot of people miss is the fact that not all dinosaurs were around at the same time. So in your book the first encounter that the time travelers have with the dinosaur is that aggressive male Edmontosaurus, and I think that might be my favorite scene in the book. Yeah usually people depict Edmontosaurus and other hadrosaurs as big docile cows. How did you decide to make that like a big threat in the book?

Geoff Jones: Well I wanted a lot of unique deaths. I didn’t want just a T-rex munching on people chapter after chapter, so I wanted to come up with some fun deaths, and you know I have William say in the book, and this is true, that in Africa more people are killed by hippos than by lions or tigers. And herbivores, they’re not the friendly veggiesauruses that you see in Jurassic Park. They’re often really dangerous if you think of a bull or a bull moose and how dangerous they can be. Plus I liked that it was a surprising attack having the Edmontosaurus come and defend its territory.

Garret: Yeah it was clever, I liked that a lot.

Geoff Jones: Thanks.

Sabrina: They also sounded a little bit gross.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, I, you know I wanted the dinosaurs to feel real. I didn’t want them to feel like zoo animals. I wanted them to look like something you’d see on a safari with matted fur and bugs buzzing around them, that sort of thing. I felt like that would make it more real. And not fur obviously but feathers. Yeah.

Sabrina: Yeah cool. And then kinda put the same thing in the works for the Triceratops. Those were actually quite deadly in the book.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, yeah, I had this image in my head of the hillside covered with them sorta like the bison that you’d see in the old American west, and just the thought that you wouldn’t really wanna get all that close to those guys.

Garret: Yeah, yeah that kinda like herd mentality, anything that approaches is a potential threat, even though they’re herbivores so they don’t necessarily wanna eat you they might be worried about what you might do to them, so…

Geoff Jones: Yeah.

Garret: Cool. So I have another question about an animal in the book. You have these huge ticks that pop up at various points. Are those real or did you make those up? I don’t know too much about ancient insects.

Geoff Jones: Those are largely an invention, but you know you always see oversized insects in a lot of the fossil record, but you don’t see tons of them. So that’s largely an invention, but it felt like a little stretching that I could get away with just based on the other kinds of oversized insects that we’ve seen.

Garret: Yeah, and they were pretty gross and intense at times.

Sabrina: Yes.

Geoff Jones: Yeah that was fun, that was fun.

Garret: Are there any other animals or dinosaurs that you would have liked to have included that you couldn’t find a way to work in?

Geoff Jones: Well I actually had a reader contact me, and I can’t remember the species right now, but the giant pterosaur type creature that would walk around and attack people with its beak. Maybe you guys know the one I’m talking about?

Garret: Might be a Quetzalcoatlus I think it was.

Geoff Jones: Yeah. That guy would be fun for sure. Everybody loves the Stegosaurus but you can’t have him around at the same time as these others, as the T-rex and the Triceratops.

Sabrina: Yeah, that’s true.

Garret: Yeah, unless you wanna do something especially crazy with your time travel where it like also jumps back and brings a stegosaurus with it or something.

Geoff Jones: Yeah. I had enough trouble trying to keep everything straight for everybody. I wanted to have just one time in the prehistory.

Garret: Yeah. Time travel always gets a little bit confusing. Cool. So you wrote the book and you kind of call it a B-movie time travel thriller. How’d you decide on that style of book?

Geoff Jones: Well it’s the sort of thing I have fun with. I mean I love horror movies, I love Stephen King’s stuff, I love anything with monsters, and I didn’t wanna write something with a lot of philosophy. You know I love Jurassic Park, it’s, the book is great fun but I didn’t wanna spend time exploring the science and philosophy and all that. I just wanted to run with the characters and the action, and that seems to have resonated with a lot of readers. Like yeah, okay, this is a fun ride, it’s a roller coaster, it’s not fine literature but people seem to have fun with it. And certainly don’t wanna over-sell it.

Garret: Yeah because I saw your description of it as like a B-movie thriller so I knew exactly kind of what you were going for, and I think for that style of book you really nailed it.

Geoff Jones: Well thanks.

Garret: I could see like maybe, like I saw a couple of reviews where people were like oh I didn’t like this character, whatever, and I was like well that’s kind of the point though that they’re a little bit over the top and you know this guy’s supposed to be really hateable, just like when you watch a movie and there’s a super obvious villain.

Geoff Jones: Yeah I had fun with that. One of the movies that I was trying to mimic and was an inspiration for me, strangely enough, was Alien where you know when you first saw that movie in 1979 you didn’t know who the hero was gonna turn out to be, and you didn’t know that one of them was actually a secret villain. And I tried to do that with Dinosaur Four, where not everybody is quite who they seem or who you think they are right at the beginning, and as it unfolds you realize okay this guy’s got a little bit of a different agenda than you thought at the beginning.

Garret: Yeah, a little bit screwy.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, a lot screwy really.

Sabrina: But at the same time he was sympathetic at times too.

Geoff Jones: I tried to keep things grey. You know, that’s real life.

Sabrina: So what was the inspiration for the other characters? I know we’ve got William has the two boys, so he somewhat knows about dinosaurs and he’s the only one who can really name any of them or give them an idea of what’s going on.

Geoff Jones: You know, I didn’t want there to be dinosaur experts, I didn’t want a paleontologist in here, I didn’t want any soldiers or anybody like that, but I needed somebody that could help explain a few things here and there and recognize a few things, so the idea of a father who’s learned all this stuff through his kids seemed like the perfect fit, you know. Somebody that an everyday person could relate to, but could also bring a little bit of knowledge to the story.

Sabrina: Yeah cool. And then of course Buddy.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, yeah, I’m a big dog fan and loved having Buddy running around.

Sabrina: Yeah he was great.

Geoff Jones: Yeah he was fun. Had him get involved in the action a few times.

Sabrina: Definitely, yeah he helped them out a few times.

Garret: So a little more general point, but you had a great narrator for your Audible edition of the book. How did you find that narrator?

Geoff Jones: Yeah, Nick Podehl did a great job. And I’ve been listening to a lot of audio books between my day job, and writing, and my kids and family I don’t have much time to read but I can do audio books. And I was listening to a book called The Knife of Never Letting Go, which is a fun little young adult story about an alien world where all of the males’ thoughts can be heard by anyone around them, which is really strange, and the protagonist is going on an adventure, you know, fleeing from trouble with a dog. And they can talk to each other telepathically, they’re both males. And Nick Podehl did the narration for this and just blew me away. He was absolutely incredible. So I looked him up, tracked him down, and hired him for the book, and was just thrilled with the job that he did.

Garret: Yeah it was really good; I’ll have to check out that book now too.

Geoff Jones: It’s fun. He’s done a bunch. On some of the audio book forums I go to he’s pretty highly regarded. Good guy.

Garret: Nice. Are you thinking of doing a sequel to this book?

Geoff Jones: So I’m not currently planning a sequel. I did leave an opening for one, but right now I’m working on another book. It’s similar in theme in that it’s about a group of sort of everyday people surviving a disaster, but this disaster is the end of the world. And so much bigger in scale. And I’ve had a lot of readers contact me and say you know they want more dinosaurs, more dinosaurs, and I’m trying to figure out how I can make that work. It’s pretty tricky.

Garret: Yeah the one way I’ve seen dinosaurs kind of in post-apocalyptic settings is they do like robot dinosaurs. There’s quite a few versions of that going around, but those aren’t, you know, that’s not really dinosaurs and it’s more man versus machine thing.

Geoff Jones: I’m gonna keep thinking about it. When the book comes out people will have to check it out and see if I come up with anything.

Sabrina: Good, yeah I was gonna say I’m on that bandwagon. More dinosaurs.

Geoff Jones: Alright, yeah, yeah I mean that’s one of the reasons I went with dinosaurs. There aren’t enough great books with dinosaurs in them. We need more. They’re so much fun.

Garret: Yeah. I kinda saw too with your title The Dinosaur Four it kinda sounded like The Fantastic Four or something, like the beginning of a series all about these characters.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, I went back and forth on the title. You know, half way through the book you realize that it’s a spoiler about how things might end up, but I felt that that was okay because I still had a surprise or two after things came into being with the numbers as it were.

Garret: Yeah.

Sabrina: Yeah it was a good twist at the end.

Geoff Jones: Thanks, thanks. I never would have called it The Dinosaur Four if I didn’t have a little extra surprise there.

Sabrina: I also liked you have a few passages where you’re inside the different dinosaur’s heads, and I guess also the crocodile right?

Geoff Jones: Yeah, I had mixed responses to that. Some people liked it, some people didn’t. I thought it was fun to sort of explain and, you know, with the crocodile following them along, or really what is it? A Deinosuchus I think? I wanted to be able to explain what was going on, and why it was following and then turning back and that sort of thing. I tried not to make them smarter than they should have been but it was fun, I had fun with it.

Garret: Yeah, I think it’s fun to do dinosaur thoughts too, because dinosaurs, some of them at least, had pretty big brains and may have had semi-complex thoughts. It’s not all just eat.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well and was it Bakker did that so well with Raptor Red?

Sabrina: Oh yeah, that was a great book.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, that’s a lot of fun to read too.

Sabrina: So living in Colorado do you go to a lot of museums, or see the sights? Dinosaur National Monument?

Geoff Jones: Yeah we have a great dinosaur exhibit in Denver. I saw your interview about the Black Hills Institute up in South Dakota. I’ve been up there and seen that and it’s fun. There’s more that I need to get to. Even at CU there’s a great triceratops skull that they’ve got. You can get right up close to it at a museum on the campus.

Garret: Cool.

Sabrina: Nice.

Garret: Yeah Colorado has a lot, we were, what was the other one? Dinosaur Ridge Trail I think it’s called?

Geoff Jones: Yeah, you can walk along and see fossils right there on the side of the mountain.

Garret: That’s great.

Geoff Jones: A lot of fun.

Garret: There’s not a lot of that in California.

Sabrina: Is it hard to juggle dinosaurs with a day job?

Geoff Jones: Yeah, there’s a lot of context switching. It’s tough, but I love storytelling. I love to do that as a game designer and I love doing that now, and I love hearing from fans that are having fun with it, so that keeps me motivated.

Sabrina: Yeah. As a game designer have you been able to work on any kind of dinosaur related games?

Geoff Jones: No never got into anything to do with dinosaurs. Played a few, but never worked on any. And I’m not doing games anymore. I’m working on business software now. I got a grownup job. So this is sort of my creative outlet for the storytelling side of things.

Sabrina: Yeah, that’s nice. Just one last question: do you have any advice for, I guess, other creative types who also have an interest in dinosaurs and might want to have some kind of outlet for their creativity?

Geoff Jones: Well there’s, for artists there’s so much great dinosaur art out there on the Internet. The paleo art sites are just wonderful to go through, and sharing those and seeing those is a lot of fun. The biggest thing as a writer is just to understand how much polishing and rewriting and editing and getting feedback. That was something that I learned as a game designer, relying on the testers to give you feedback about what was working and what wasn’t, and I really translated that into my writing.

I spent about a year writing the book, and then I spent another two years rewriting and polishing and editing, and I worked with a professional editor and had a lot of beta readers and all that just to get something that’s as good as you can make it before you really put it out there in front of people.

Sabrina: Definitely.

Geoff Jones: And just know that has to happen and be prepared for it, and work through it.

Sabrina: Definitely. And how did your early readers, what did they think of the dinosaurs?

Geoff Jones: Oh they loved them. You know, one of the big changes to the early drafts was adding in Morgan. I originally only had nine characters, and bringing in Morgan as a source of humor with a lot of sarcasm and sort of juvenile humor was one of the changes that I made. But just hearing from people, getting feedback on what’s working, what’s confusing, tightening it all up as you go.

Sabrina: Great, well thank you so much.

Geoff Jones: Yeah, thank you, this has been fun. And appreciate the opportunity.

Garret: Is there anything else you wanna promote or mention?

Geoff Jones: Oh just if anybody out there reads the book I love hearing from readers and always appreciate the feedback.

Sabrina: Where’s the best place for readers to find you?

Geoff Jones: At geoffjoneswriter.com, that’s G-E-O-F-F, and I think I link to that off of Amazon. You can find me. I’m not hiding; you can find me pretty easily.

Sabrina: Great.