In our sixth episode of I Know Dino, we had the pleasure of speaking with Keiron Pim, author of the book Dinosaurs: The Grand Tour, published by The Experiment Publishing (known as The Bumper Book of Dinosaurs in the U.K.).
Learn more about Keiron at his website, keironpim.co.uk. Keiron was also kind enough to recommend Darren Naish’s blog, Tetrapod Zoology, on Scientific American, for those who want to read up more on dinosaurs.
You can listen to our free podcast, with all our episodes, on iTunes at:
In this episode, we discuss:
- The dinosaur of the day: Spinosaurus, which means “Spiny Lizard.”
- Spinosaurus was bigger than T-rex, but it would not have been able to fight well on land. It could be as long as 49 feet.
- Spinosaurus lived in the late Cretaceous, about 110-95 million years ago, in North Africa.
- Ernst Stromer discovered the first Spinosaurus in 1915, but the original fossils were destroyed in WWII.
- Spinosaurus had a long head, great for catching fish. It could live on both land and in water, like a modern crocodile (and the first dinosaur to have taken to water).
- Spinosaurus had long spine extensions that grew to 6 feet long and were probably connected to the spine via skin. This gave them a sail-like structure.
- Spinosaurus also scavenged and ate dinosaurs in addition to fish. Its conical teeth raked in fish, and its powerful arms with hooked claws could also catch prey.
- Spinosaurus was part of the Spinosauridae family, which were theropods (a group of mostly carnivorous dinosaurs that evolved into birds). Spinosaurids have been found in Africa, Europe, South America, Asia, and Australia.
- What Spinosaurids ate depended on their size. One was found with a pterosaur in its stomach contents.
- Fun Fact: There are two kinds of dinosaurs, lizard-hipped saurischians and bird-hipped ornithischians. Modern birds came from the lizard-hipped dinosaurs.
For those who may prefer reading, see below for the full transcript of our interview with author Keiron Pim:
Keiron Pim: So, I’ve been living in Norwich, England, which people listening in America, is about a couple of hours northeast of London. That’s the best way to describe it. And I’m delighted to have written this book about dinosaurs and it’s just been published. It was published in England and it was published in the USA four months ago by The Experiment Publishing in New York. And I’m absolutely delighted that they’ve picked it up, that they’ve published it in the U.S. It’s great. It’s really exciting. I’m married to Rowan and we’ve got three little girls. And, yeah, I think that’s probably tells you what you need to know about me.
Sabrina: Had you written about dinosaurs at all before The Bumper Book of Dinosaurs?
Keiron Pim: No. And, actually, no. I’ve been a writer 15 years, but mainly I mean I was predominantly a journalist for the local newspaper here in Norwich. It’s called the Eastern Daily Press. Mainly, I was a feature writer […]. But, most of the time, I write about kind of books, music, that kind of thing, celebrity interviews, all of that. I would have liked to write about dinosaurs, but my job never really went that way. So, no, I can’t say — [inaudible] the opportunity of my book. I thought [dinosaurs] would be fascinating.
Sabrina: How did that opportunity come up? What inspired you to write it?
Keiron Pim: Well, I — let me think how I can explain this succinctly. I was working on three books at once actually a long time [inaudible]. One was a book of poetry that I was editing and [inaudible] information. Another one was a biography that I have been working on for the last four years. And, in the process of working on that, my [inaudible], they took me on to represent that book. But, there’s a publisher in New York wanted to publish a book about dinosaurs. And my agent said to me, “Does this interesting?” And I thought, “Yeah, that sounds absolutely.” So, I kind of — I put that biography on hold. I kept [inaudible] over as well and done the research. But, I mainly focused on researching and writing about dinosaurs. So, that’s how it came up really and it was an opportunity I was [inaudible] and I thought, “That sounds fascinating. I have the opportunity to write a book and have it published.” And I thought, “Actually, that sounds great.”
Sabrina: So, how long did it take to research everything and write it all down?
Keiron Pim: It took about slightly [inaudible]. Well, it took about 18 months. But, originally, well it would be about [inaudible]. They wanted me to write in the spring and summer — by the late summer in order to come out for Christmas. But, then there were royalty problems within the publishing process. It ended up getting held over a year. So, I kind of wrote it in two births. I wrote it — the first [inaudible] which was 2012 and I kind of got [inaudible] and then it got held up. It got held over a year. At that time that it was — we’d gotten to 2013, because paleontology moves so quickly now, quite a lot of my entries had got out of date. I thought, now, it’s a book that’s out of date, so I’m going to go through everything again. So, I went through all the entries and [inaudible] But, also, of course, that’s one of those dinosaur thing — you know, [inaudible] a little bit better with the new finds because there were new dinosaurs, completely new dinosaurs. So, I felt like I had the opportunity to work in a few extra dinosaurs as well, which was great because there was things like new Tyrannous [inaudible] ever known, so the Tyrannosaur from China that was just discovered. I managed to get him in. So — not the dinosaur, but the amazing Jurassic sea reptile that was previously known under various names such as Tyrannosaurus Rex. And, then, it finally got properly published and documented in the name [inaudible]. And, once that had been properly published and described by paleontologists, I thought [inaudible] that in as well. It’s one of those things I got in that book. So, it’s one of those dinosaurs of the Triassic Jurassic [inaudible]. I’ve got other remaining animals that would [inaudible] science as well. So, I’ve got [inaudible] as well. So, yes, although initially it was frustrating that my book got held over, it turned out to be a good thing because some amazing new animals came up that I got to fit into the book. So, it turned out to be [inaudible].
Sabrina: About how animals would you say are covered in your book?
Keiron Pim: I would say actually — hang on. Let me think. Roughly 300 or [inaudible] than others. And we’ve got a section — well, there’s [inaudible] version and version [inaudible] of all the dinosaurs known from each [inaudible]. So, I’ve got all the dinosaurs from Britain, but I’ve only got a line about each. And we’ve got all the dinosaurs from [inaudible] and, again, just [inaudible] age. So, if you count those, then I have 300. If you don’t, then I’d say about 250 — 250 or so proper entries anyway.
Sabrina: So, how did you go about conducting research for the book?
Keiron Pim: Yeah. I would say it was mainly from my desk, mostly through reading — doing anything from reading paleontological reports online, descriptions of dinosaurs online, reading around online, and actually watching [inaudible] talks given by paleontologists like Jack Horner, which was fascinating, lots of reading. I made [inaudible] visits to the Natural History Museum in London, which made it all come back to [inaudible]. Several paleontologists helped me along the way, a guy called Roger Benson at the University of Cambridge, a guy called Mack Taylor who is at the [inaudible], and in particular a really famous paleontologist called [inaudible] manufactured a book for me because I always like to make clear I’m not a paleontologist. I’m not a scientist. I’m an enthusiast who was lucky enough to be given a chance to write this book. But, I don’t profess to be a great expert or authority on what [inaudible] will do, though, is kind of put a header around this [inaudible] and convey it in a way that I hope is interesting and engaging. But, I thought I needed to have a real expert on hand as well and [inaudible] He read my manuscript. He gave me a few pointers. Between us, I think we came up with something that was scientifically sound and also I hope kind of generally accessible too.
Sabrina: Oh, I think it is. I have the book and have been using it for reference and there’s a lot of cool stuff in there.
Keiron Pim: That’s nice to hear. Thank you.
Sabrina: What are some of your favorite experiences writing this book?
Keiron Pim: I think about that and I can’t really say there was that many experience. I mean I suppose I liked a bit — actually, this was only in the U.K. But, I think I write a bit about doing fossil [inaudible] on the south coast of England, which is known as the Jurassic Coast because it’s exposed a lot of Jurassic rocks, which are absolutely rich with fossils. I mean [inaudible] everywhere. And I liked also [inaudible], lots of sea creatures from the Jurassic [inaudible]. You could tell that quite well they’re [inaudible]. And back in the [inaudible] century, there was fossils in [inaudible]. I mean [Mary Anning] she was a wonderful sort of pioneering female scientist at a time when women really were not seen or respected as scientists [inaudible] very male-dominated science and technology. And she’s a brilliant female role model. She got out there and she got all these amazing — essentially, I think she [inaudible] fossils around [inaudible]. And, so, about 170 or so years old when she was doing that. I had to search up and down the cliffs around [inaudible] went looking for fossils. I didn’t find any there sadly. I was with the [inaudible] — I had a community of [inaudible] as well. But, I didn’t — but, I had a nice time walking along with my wife and, well, one dog we had at the time. We’ve got three now. But, walking along and coming and looking around for [inaudible]. It was good fun looking at. And, then, the good thing is that the [inaudible] of fossil shops. So, if you don’t find anything, just go to a fossil shop and buy one of many [inaudible], etc. that they’ve got there. [inaudible] But, I think having these other experiences with the book, I would say many — I should say I enjoyed the experience of the research really and turning up amazing stories that I didn’t know before.
The other thing, I was amazed to learn about islands off [inaudible] if you like that’s it shown to be the case, if the animals are isolated on an island, they tend often to turn into dwarf versions of their kind of mainland cousins if you like. So, we have island dwarf dinosaurs such as urectosaurus [sp], which was an [inaudible]. It was still about three meters tall. So, [inaudible] than any human being. But, for a [inaudible], that’s tiny. So, that’s when the dwarf [inaudible] and they evolved to become smaller than most dinosaurs of that time as to cope with the diminished resources, diminished food resources available through living on an island. So, it was a survival [inaudible]
But, the other extreme related to learning about the mysterious [inaudible], which was the kind of possibly — absolutely immense — by far, the biggest theropod ever known, maybe about 60 meters long. But, it’s wrapped in mystery because the effort was [inaudible] American paleontologists discovered, and he drew it, and described it. But, there was only one huge fossil [inaudible]. And based on what he described, then [inaudible] was an immense relative of [inaudible] and 60 meters long. But, the thing is that the fossil bone disappeared. It’s nowhere to be seen. And I thought that probably because it was from really fragile rock, which [inaudible] named [inaudible] I think. So, the rock probably crumbled apart in the laboratory and he [inaudible]. But, because it’s all we’ve got to go on, those descriptions and illustrations, it’s not quite enough to be sure really. So, it’s a tantalizing mystery of dinosaur research and [inaudible]
So, it’s tough for me to answer. I’m thinking of it [inaudible]. I loved learning about Edward Cope which I write after the book in which he and his great rival, Othniel Charles Marsh, waged this ridiculous feud in which they fought about doing the [inaudible] and the others. So, they took great pride in kind of ridiculing each other’s science, or one of them dynamiting his own fossil excavation pit after he finished work so that [inaudible] would [inaudible] on his [inaudible] by diverting a trainload of Marsh’s fossils. So, [inaudible], just back and forth, silly [inaudible] to a couple of squabbling kids for a bit. But, these are grown men and they’ve should have known better. But, [inaudible] competition was [inaudible] to watch. Then, after that competition, they really drove each other to find some amazing discoveries, another one [inaudible] and [inaudible]. I guess some good came out of it [inaudible] they were [inaudible] to watch.
Sabrina: [inaudible] in The Guardian, you mentioned learning about dinosaurs, learning about other stuff like mythology, astronomy, [inaudible], and geology. Can you elaborate?
Keiron Pim: Again, [inaudible] that really it took me by surprise when I really immersed myself in subjects. And, so, [inaudible] American stories about dinosaur bones. And the main thing about mythology is looking at the ways that, based on what’s understood dinosaur fossils, is [inaudible] from dinosaurs. So, we’ve only known about dinosaurs really since the early to late 19th century. But, dinosaur fossils have been discovered from time immemorial when people have seen them and tried to work out what on earth kind of animal could have left this. And so, throughout history, there seems to have been stories of people coming up with their own explanations and that’s what mythology is. So, Native Americans, for example, their idea of the Thunderbird [inaudible] derived from [inaudible] fossils. Chinese dragon mythology, that’s surely no coincidence that China has such a rich dragon mythology and also has such a rich dinosaur fossil heritage as well. So, it’s [inaudible] really.
So, if you talk about astronomy, an obvious example would be you find yourself learning about meteor strikes and the fact that history — however many million years and [inaudible] events all throughout [inaudible] of the earth and to make up for the [inaudible]. So, that happens about [inaudible] that we know about with one of, if not the predominant cause of the dinosaurs or the [inaudible] dinosaur extinction. Well, if you find yourself [inaudible] learning about this whole thing like how the moon was a certain [inaudible] figure in the sky during the dinosaur’s time because it was that much closer to Earth. The moon is, by very small increments, every year moving that little bit further away from us. [inaudible] round and round and it’s all — it’s further and further away. So, [inaudible] access over the course of the human lifespan. But, if you go back a couple of hundred million years, back in the Triassic, it would have been [inaudible] in the sky. The part that’s really interesting is [inaudible] called [inaudible]. I was intrigued to learn about evolutionary theory after reading up on the dinosaurs, looking at the way that they evolved. Take tyrannosaurs, for example, when they first come on the scene, fairly small — I wouldn’t say innocuous, but they were relatively small hunters. So, it was [inaudible] how they got small and [inaudible]. Their brains evolved. The [inaudible] around their jaws got more sophisticated and stronger and stronger. And we can see that because they’ve traced fossil records and there’s a distinct evolutionary process that we can see. And that’s repeated through the history of dinosaurs.
We see it in [inaudible]. We’re seeing dinosaurs getting bigger, more sophisticated things into them, and very often specializing. Dinosaurs would be an example of a fascinating specialization to [inaudible] sort of focused on feeding in water. So, say Africa, [inaudible] million years ago, you had [inaudible] in North Africa seemingly feeding on huge fish in lakes and rivers. And you had [inaudible]. So, [inaudible] or feeding on what was made for [inaudible]. You have dinosaurs that evolved with this great [inaudible] like [inaudible] that was perfectly [inaudible] to feeding on fish. So, that kind of evolutionary specialization I found really interesting and also geology as well.
The whole business of thinking about fossils, fossilization, you learn about the process how sedimentary rock forms, how fossils form, and then how they’re dated. And they learn how rocks [inaudible] and obscured for millions of years get pushed by tectonic forces, pushed into view. You have [inaudible] feedback that receives [inaudible] for the seabed drying out and get pushed up, and we see what was once a seabed becomes a cliff face. All these things. So, when you learn about dinosaurs, you’re learning about geology, evolution, astronomy, mythology, [inaudible] with the science really. Of course, the other big thing really with the evolutionary theory as well is the amazing thing that we have dinosaurs all around us and we’ve seen full [inaudible] and therapods have all [inaudible] around us today. And, when you look at [inaudible] and when you start thinking about dinosaurs, you look at [inaudible] yes, that’s actually saying, once you start thinking about [inaudible] dinosaurs and you picture say velociraptor, and then you look at say a hawk today, it’s so easy to understand really. You almost think why does anyone find this theory so hard to accept, that [inaudible].
Sabrina: I know. I look at birds and I think, if they were the size the dinosaurs were, they would be terrifying. So…
Keiron Pim: Well, yeah. Yeah. If you look at something like [inaudible], which came within the [inaudible], which came within the [inaudible], so you look at some of these dinosaurs a second time, so when you look at birds today and you think the connection is so obvious really. It’s wonderful and it’s [inaudible] things. And to look at birds today, when you start thinking about when the dinosaurs, you look at them afresh, and you really see them as amazing, very ancient creatures that they are. It’s the way that you start thinking — dinosaurs flying around us today. And also, when you look back at some of the dinosaurs as well and some of the [inaudible] dinosaurs, some of them were incredibly fearsome to look at it. They weren’t always, as far as we know, that fearsome. But, you have ones like [inaudible] for example, an immense [inaudible] dinosaur that looks like — I look at the picture of it that we’ve got in the book and it looks a bit like the famous illustration of the jabberwocky through [inaudible], a picture by John Tenniel. I looked at it and the way [inaudible] story is illustrated, it makes you think of that. You’ve got this terrible, horrendous creature. But, for many years, there was these great circles, a nautilus, kind of symmetrical eggs were found in the Mongolian desert. Paleontologists for a long time said what kind of creature could have left something like that? Well, what found is [inaudible] monstrous looking creature, [inaudible], was found in the Mongolian desert. They thought [inaudible]. But, as it turns out, it was probably omnivorous, probably wasn’t a seriously fearsome predator. It was probably — mostly ate plants, maybe also eggs and mollusks. Maybe it wasn’t as fearsome as it looks, but still must be an incredible creature to behold.
Sabrina: So, you’ve kind of talked about this a little bit, different theropods and the new dinosaurs you found after 2013 after the book had been published. But, what are some of the most exciting or surprising recent dinosaur discoveries you came across?
Keiron Pim: I think [inaudible] a big, fluffy, [inaudible]. I thought that was fantastic. And I love the way that the artist, a paleo artist who illustrated my book, [inaudible], I really like the way that he illustrated it for the book. It was — yeah. [inaudible] Yeah. That was a great, surprising discovery.
Sabrina: You had mentioned a few paleontologists who helped you with the book and I saw on — I think Amazon was doing it. It mentions Jack Horner, the paleontologist. Did you work with him?
Keiron Pim: I have to say I didn’t work with him directly at all. It was the publisher who got him onboard. But, because — for the American version, I was reaching [inaudible] the publisher [inaudible]. You take specific persons in the British edition because that [inaudible] interest. We accept and that we should replace them with American-specific versions. And the publisher thought, well, this being [inaudible], why don’t we try Jack Horner? And, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. And they asked him and they got him, which was absolutely fantastic. I didn’t have any dealings with him myself, but I emailed him once he’d written those sections to say thank you and it’s a privilege to have you contributing to my book. But, I didn’t have any direct dealings with him. I was actually delighted and thrilled to have him onboard. And [inaudible] that we should have him meant even — on the cover of the book and I had absolutely no problems about sharing space with him on the book. I thought he’s fantastic. I mean he was the most famous paleontologists in the world. But, sadly, no, I didn’t get to meet him or talk to him.
Sabrina: Maybe the next book.
Keiron Pim: Maybe. [inaudible]
Sabrina: Do you have a favorite dinosaur?
Keiron Pim: I think it depends on [inaudible]. Yeah. I’ve been asked a few times now. I probably answer differently each time. But, some days, it would probably be the speedy, bull-horned predator, [inaudible]. Other days, it would be the fluffy tyrannosaurs [inaudible]. If I’m feeling nostalgic for my childhood, it would probably be good, old [Diplodocus], who reminds me of childhood visits to Natural History Museum in London. If you were to ask me where it all started, my interest in dinosaurs, I could be pretty precise. It would be going to the Natural History Museum in London when I was two to three, four years old and [inaudible] when I was that age. And my idea of a perfect day out would be getting taken to the Natural History Museum. And they’ve got this [Diplodocus] skeleton. And you walk in and it’s just overwhelms you, and it’s huge, and you cannot help but be overwrought. And it just imprints on any child’s mind. I think you walk into the Natural History Museum, and there’s other dinosaur skeletons there as well, and they’re not [inaudible] gift shops and go away with your dinosaur books, and your dinosaur poster, and your [inaudible] shaped eraser. I was going to say we called them rubbers then, but now that’s a got a different meaning. So, yeah, I was a three year old kind of leaving the Natural History Museum with an eraser. And from — yeah. So, it kind of all started there, but maybe [inaudible].
But, I think through writing the book, I would have to say maybe [Spinosaurus] just because it was so big, and so strange, and so interesting, and so unlike most [inaudible] with its crocodilian kind of skull and its dorsal sail. So, I’d probably guess it’s [Spinosaurus]. And I’m really interested — just going off on a tangent. One of the interesting things I remember turning up when researching my entry in the book on [inaudible] was [inaudible] about what that huge sail could be for on its back. And one idea is that maybe it worked in the same way that some herons operate now. They will kind of [inaudible], and put up their wings, and create a big shadow [inaudible] when they’re standing. [inaudible] fish instinctively swim into the shadowed water to cool down. And, then, the herons kind of like duck down and [inaudible] fish. And it’s a theory that maybe [inaudible] dorsal’s tail, it created a big kind of circular-like shadow over the water, fish swam into the shadowy water, and possibly — the theory [inaudible] that it had sensors on parts of its body, parts of its snout that would have been immersed under water the same way that a crocodile would be slightly immersed. [inaudible] have these sensors and they detect fish [inaudible] in the water nearby. So, the fish swim into the dark sort of water. [inaudible] senses them. Then, it’s got [inaudible]. And that’s a longwinded way of answering your question. My favorite dinosaur — yeah, it probably is [Spinosaurus].
Sabrina: So, after doing all this research and learning more about spinosaurs [sp] and all the other dinosaurs, I don’t know — have you watched the Jurassic Park movies since doing this book? Do you see anything differently or dinosaurs in the media in general?
Keiron Pim: I read pretty much anything that comes up, any new discoveries I read with a combination of [inaudible] I guess. On the one hand, excitement and thrill at some of these amazing new animals that are being discovered. On the other, frustration that my book has come out and I can’t put them in. With every new one, my book feels like it’s slightly out of date, but it’s just inevitable. It’s one of the great things about writing a book about dinosaurs now is that it’s such an interesting topic in dinosaur paleontology. [inaudible] calling it the Golden Age of Dinosaur Paleontology with interesting new finds every month. So, it’s a really rich time to write about, but obviously the [inaudible] that your book comes out [inaudible] new dinosaurs. So, making a revised edition at some point [inaudible].
Sabrina: That was going to be my next question then. Do you have plans to write more books about dinosaurs?
Keiron Pim: Oh, yes. [inaudible] biography that I mentioned earlier, which is completely different. It’s a million miles away really. But, once I finish this and it’s been published. I would love to do another popular science book at some point and, if we can back to dinosaurs again, so much the better. I just had some good news that my dinosaur book has just been bought by a publisher in the Czech Republic. So, it’s going to be translated into Czech, which is interesting. And, again, we’re doing [inaudible] focusing it on — there’s not a huge array of [inaudible] dinosaurs. But, again, we want to sell something that’s going to be fascinating, interesting to a Czech for these kind of [inaudible] to Eastern Europeans readership. So, maybe we can — yeah. I need to find a way of doing that. So, that’s the next challenge as regards to asking about dinosaurs.
Sabrina: I just want to go real quick back to with the [Diplodocus] at the Natural History Museum. I’m sure you’ve heard they’re planning to remove [Dippy] in 2017. What are your thoughts on that?
Keiron Pim: I think it’s shocking, and outrageous, and terrible. And they’re destroying my childhood. [laugh] No. I can sort of see their point. Their idea is that dinosaurs are great, but they’re extinct. And, if they but the blue whale skeleton in — they’re talking about making a [inaudible] of a certain animal that’s endangered now and [inaudible]. They become extinct. So, you can see that there’s more ecological value in having a frightening, great blue whale skeleton that’s going to make people think more about blue whales and I can see all of that. But, there’s already a blue whale elsewhere in the museum and it’s such an icon of London, [inaudible], and millions of children, it’s been part of their childhood going to the Natural History Museum, being [inaudible] by [inaudible] like I was. And it’s caused quite a [inaudible] really. So, it’s this idea of they’re going to take [inaudible] or [inaudible] PR-friendly things about — make it more accessible to people that even more people will go to see it. Well, I think pretty much everyone goes to London at some point and everyone living in the U.K. does. And pretty much everyone who goes to London goes to the Natural History Museum at some point.
I give talks about dinosaurs tying in with my book. And I give them all over the place, from the Edinburgh Book Festival to Bath, which is right over in Western England, and the Natural History Museum. When it [inaudible], pretty much all the children in the audience have been there. So, I [inaudible] by this [inaudible] out to the masses. I think pretty much all the masses have [inaudible]. I’m a bit disgruntled. I think [inaudible] it actually comes a part for it — actually, if they have a bit of [inaudible]. But, anyway…
Sabrina: I know there’s a campaign online.
Keiron Pim: There is. Yeah. It’s [inaudible]. It really has.
Sabrina: What advice would you give to somebody who is interested in dinosaurs?
Keiron Pim: Well, first of all, I think really the most important thing is they should buy Dinosaurs, A Grand Tour, published by [inaudible] Publishing. [laugh] [inaudible] But, it contains all that they will ever need to know about dinosaurs ever. Other than that, go to museums. There’s so many great looking museums in America that I would love to go to, from the Museum of the Rockies down to the museum in Chicago that’s got a T-Rex in it. So, try to [inaudible] your holiday so that you can go to places where you can either go to a city that’s got a great museum or go out into the badlands and take in some time for [inaudible] sites maybe. [inaudible] walking with dinosaurs yourself. And read all the books you can. Watch what you can online. [inaudible], talks, and watch [inaudible] Talks, some great ones on there. In fact, some great scientific [inaudible] this community I think. Again, [inaudible] would be a good example. Just get out there really and explore the world of dinosaurs however you can. Yeah. And read as many books as you can. Obviously, I would say read my book, but there’s so many others as well and it’s a pretty rich field. Yes, that would be my advice I think. But, I suppose, think more widely about [inaudible] as well and start understanding how dinosaurs fit into the greater picture, the greater picture of evolution, and how they evolved into the [inaudible]. So, they are incredible animals and at the same time sort of [inaudible] such as [inaudible] and some incredibly large [inaudible]. But, how many years people thought [inaudible] was too big to get off the ground. But, the current thinking is that actually it was probably light enough [inaudible] to get off the ground and fly. And think about the natural world. As I said, reading about dinosaurs takes you off in so many different directions anyway. But, that would be my advice. Just immerse yourself into [inaudible]
Sabrina: Thank you.
Keiron Pim: Well, thank you.